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My Comments on the
History of Desert Stream
We consider our work a mission
Because AIDS and sexual brokenness have become major problems in the last decade. The church must be equipped to understand these problems as they relate to Christians and to those searching for eternal solutions outside her doors. She must extend the hand of Jesus to the homosexual struggler, the victim of abuse, the person whose life is unraveling due to AIDS. With the church's right understanding and capacity to minister, the sexually-broken and persons with AIDS find real hope; despair results when the church fails to reflect Jesus to these needy ones
^i^ Why if the Church needs to help the " homosexual struggler" that the Church also must condemn the gays that aren't struggling? As horrible as AIDS is the Church has not taken any steps to really help. But in all the major plagues of the past the Church also rejected the diseased blaming it on a groups or groups sin. The half a the AIDS thing is far from known. I bet you haven't spent a moment considering what HEAL has to say. This doesn't mean I support or accept what they say, but what they have to say is very important and has plenty of facts which are quite scary and not on just AIDS. Why has sexual brokenness just become a problem this last decade? Sexual problems were always around and thanks to the Church its extra major. I guess you are saying DS is equipped. I contend you are not.
Desert Stream Ministries began as a result of my own restoration. Over a three year period, God enabled me to emerge out of a homosexual identity and into a heterosexual one. (The healing has continued since that time but it has occurred in the context of my heterosexual status.) In 1980, my wife Annette and I responded to God's call to begin a biblically-based healing group in West Hollywood for people struggling with homosexuality.
^i^ Again, why do you have to condemn the ones that aren't struggling? You do condemn them because you use the Bible to show gay is sin. The Bible does not condemn gays at all. You bisexuals just don't get it do you? You think by getting married to the opposite sex prove God delivered you. I have been reading a lot of testimonies of ex-gay ministry founders and leaders and the tune is they were such pitiful gays once so full of pain and guilt and abuse during growing up. If your healing truly continues then why is it so hard to listen to gays that are perfectly healthy? So far if I try to explain my testimony of coming to Jesus and my life before Jesus I just get mocked and told I am angry. Why? It is so easy for ministries like yours to make not of my life while saying your life proves gay is sin and Jesus delivers. Why does groups like your and many churches ignore gays with wonderful testimonies? How many gays have you seen allowed at your church to testify and give account of his life with Jesus Christ. You show one side of the story. You show extremely sick people, so far most were bisexuals in great despair. What a lie is presented about gays. And who has the opportunity to see God's work in gays. Well God has not forgotten gays and has reserved a day to answer their prayers. The cup is almost to the brim and when the cup is full God moves. Whether I seem angry to you like I appear to other ex-gays leaders does not matter I will do what I can to try to get through to you and if appearing angry to you is it then so be it. God knows what he is doing and once I am through I am off elsewhere. I just want to make another attempt before its to late to try to break that barrier down that bounds you to the old 700 year lie that gay is sin. I send these comments to your testimonies to all the ex-gay ministries so if you don't understand some of it that's ok you'll catch up unless its time for me to move. Well lets get on with your history.
Encouraged by our pastor, at that time, Kenn Gulliksen, the one group grew into several. Our church played a key role here. We urged our people to enter into the life of a local church body. In turn, we educated our own church and began to educate others as to how members of the believing community could more effectively stand with strugglers in their healing journey. To our surprise, we found that the themes essential to the homosexual's healing honesty, willingness, confession, forgiveness, effective prayer for early wounds and deprivations, and learning to set honorable boundaries with either gender applied to all.
^i^ So does the appearance of growth mean gay is sin? A note: soon the Church will be asked by the secular to help make morals laws. Is this good because the Church has a good role in bringing God's "LAWS" and making them mans "laws"? But this is prophecy and so growth in your case is God is with you and not the Last Days are approaching and the Church has joined the frenzy to make legal moral laws and to stop sin. I might have missed it , but I have not seen the denominational background mentioned. Another misrepresentation of ex-gay ministries. Churches is radically different backgrounds sends their gays to ex-gays ministries. I am Assemblies of God. Why would AOG send them to Reformed church (Metonia) or HA (7 Day Adventist originally)? Educate? In what way. " healing honesty, willingness, confession, forgiveness, effective prayer for early wounds and deprivations" sounds like straight problems. And it is very common direction of those accepting Jesus. You see your meaning is apply this all to changing gay to straight. You also say you condemn transsexual, transgender, and transvestites. That you have determined what is man and what is woman. How did you learn this? Effective prayer??????????????????? I guess you don't do much research on your clients. But many do. The failure rate is as effective as the Salvation Armies' alcoholic program. I had a man that worked in the office of their headquarters and he had full access to the files, beside much more. He knew for a fact that they had a 98% failure rate because he knew everyone that went through the doors. HONESTY? It is hard to believe you know about honesty. I am and will be a little on the sarcastic side, but to make a point, if you can't get it so what. You won't listen anyway or check me out or allow me to present Jesus' message. So I will assumed you are no different than those that I have talked with before. Hundreds of thousands of homophobic Christians. There is such a thing as creditability and to ignore it isn't very smart. I have been preaching on TV for over 12 years. I ran my own BBS for 8 years. I taken groups of 20 or more to all kinds of CHRISTIAN churches to attend church and Sunday school for 5 years. My 24 year background is Assemblies of God. I have been in Christian chat room nightly for 2. 5 years. I have studied both sides of the gay issue pro and con. I have a walk with Jesus Christ that speaks I am his. I have been prophesies over at least a hundred times called out specifically by pastors and those of TBN fame and other ministers. Had 3 major physical healings. At L. I. F. E. ex-gay testimony rally the Holy Spirit drew that leader and the pastor of the church the rally was at into my arms as I hugged them in love praying in tongues. The pastor instantly was delivered of his violent attitude including possible physical violence towards me. Christian leader across this country as well as straight Christians often told me how they sensed God in me and confided their prayer needs to me and concerns. I am gay, how do you figure. I am not lying. This is the story of my Christian walk. Only when I started being open (with "Gays For Jesus" as the name of my TV program) had Christian spoken negative towards. Before they saw me face to face and saw Jesus, now others and in a new city see the word "gay" and that they say is the only testimony they need see. I expect you will have made up your mind as well based on the word "gay" in my name. For you see I lived my life. Do you think you can minimize my relationship with God? Though you and those that insist that gay is sin can't fathom a gay person with such a relationship with God that you totally reject them or what they may say. However, the rejection of such an one is not something to be taken lightly. God spent the years with gays and produced a witness to you. What are you to say. You won't hear it? Christians lovers of truth soon as they see truth they reject it. God's people gave false witness about Jesus so that he'd be crucified. False witness abounds in accusations against gays. These same gays will come with open arms to restore you to Christ in the coming Days when the Masons tricks you into to believing Jesus of the Bible lied to you. Masons? What Masons? Duh! Their 5000 year goal is about to be completed. 80 years ago they set as goal in the USA to personally go into the churches especially the Sunday schools to ever so subtly ever so slightly modify teaching so that by this time the Church will be ready for the "confusion". The Bible tells us this we just don't read or care about that part. Part of our faith is to believe God. We don't believe he will do what he said that somehow the NT nullified the OT. We are told to holdfast, to standfast, to persevere, and similar things so many times in the Bible especially the NT and yet we all just think will are guaranteed salvation. Yes as long as we stay faithful. Something is about to happen that will shake us and hence the warning to remain faithful till the end. With the water being shut off Christian must rely on deep roots, but most have shallow roots thinking there have deep roots because of the water. Believe I know what I am talking about. You better know time is running out. Deep and shallow roots feels the same like you are really close to Jesus, because you are. But you are suppose to sink your roots into Jesus and didn't because the surface water and rain was enough to enjoy Christ even in hard times he was there for you. But the Church has never been without water for 2000 years. Its coming very soon. Russia has not deterred or shut down their nuclear bombs. It is very possible the "think an evil thought" has already happened for Russia leader "real leader" has the idea that he can stir up the middle east and or Korea to such a degree the USA would use the A-bomb and them can be blamed for the first strike which them allows them to retaliate. I am nits aren't I? or am I? But for you its far better to play an ex-gay game avoiding the truth about gays and basing you condemnation on the 700 year anti-gay Church doctrine
Rivers in the Desert
God gave us a name from Isaiah 43:18,19. In these verses, the prophet describes God making a way for sin-weary people. In His steadfast love, He promised to make a way in Israel's wilderness; He promised to become a river in the desert of her idolatry and enemy oppression. In turn, "Desert Stream Ministries" describes God making a way for people wounded by sexual sin and weary of its consequences.
^i^ It is so sweet to name ministries with Bible meanings, but all to often it's taken out of context or you leave out the rest of the story.
Your two verses
Isa 43:18-19
18 "Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. 19 See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the desert and streams in the wasteland. (NIV)
^i^ Yes a very popular couple of verses. It fits just about everyone. I can also say it fits my ministry to a tee too. But like always the Church so often forgets the context to find out what the whole meaning God has. Now here is the text in full context:
Complete context
Isa 43:1-28
1 But now thus saith Jehovah that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel: Fear not, for I have redeemed thee; I have called thee by thy name, thou art mine. 2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned, neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. 3 For I am Jehovah thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour; I have given Egypt as thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in thy stead. 4 Since thou hast been precious in my sight, (and) honorable, and I have loved thee; therefore will I give men in thy stead, and peoples instead of thy life. 5 Fear not; for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; 6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back; bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the end of the earth; 7 every one that is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory, whom I have formed, yea, whom I have made. 8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. 9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the peoples be assembled: who among them can declare this, and show us former things? let them bring their witnesses, that they may be justified; or let them hear, and say, It is truth. 10 Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour. 12 I have declared, and I have saved, and I have showed; and there was no strange (god) among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and I am God. 13 Yea, since the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who can hinder it?
Sub-context or secondary context
14 Thus saith Jehovah, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and I will bring down all of them as fugitives, even the Chaldeans, in the ships of their rejoicing. 15 I am Jehovah, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King. 16 Thus saith Jehovah, who maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters; 17 who bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the mighty man (they lie down together, they shall not rise; they are extinct, they are quenched as a wick): 18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. 19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now shall it spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. 20 The beasts of the field shall honor me, the jackals and the ostriches; because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen, 21 the people which I formed for myself, that they might set forth my praise.
F
inal follow up context (3rd context)22 Yet thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel. 23 Thou hast not brought me of thy sheep for burnt-offerings; neither hast thou honored me with thy sacrifices. I have not burdened thee with offerings, nor wearied thee with frankincense. 24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices; but thou hast burdened me with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities. 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake; and I will not remember thy sins. 26 Put me in remembrance; let us plead together: set thou forth (thy cause), that thou mayest be justified. 27 Thy first father sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me. 28 Therefore I will profane the princes of the sanctuary; and I will make Jacob a curse, and Israel a reviling. (ASV)
^i^ So you see choosing a theme from a verse or two may really sound good and seem to fit your need, the broader context is not one dot or tittle less meaningful in your circumstance. God tells you his promises and what is possible and how much he cares, but he also says how unappreciative you. Those like you have told me I twist scripture to justify gay is not sin. Yet, you can't see in front of your nose the true meaning of the above context. You just took out something that by itself is so lovely. Aren't you concerned that you can just as easily or have fallen into the same things as the 3rd context? By the way this chapter has a significant meaning. I won't go into it here, but there is a story about the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11:4 and Zech. 4:14 in this chapter. It is part of their life's story that God tells those that have eyes and ears. Though the context ends quite negatively the Bible goes on to say there is another restoration which last for the above condition. You had a chance, but joined in with the rest to condemn so many people with not having much thought about it and probably don't consider it condemning at al and call it love instead. You will have to go into the next step and that step will see if your faith is true or a surface thing. It is this next test that will tell any thinking that you already past has no meaning. 3 billion will die and you aren't just going to be asked nicely to worship the beast. It's a very deceptive way that it will be done so much so that many Christians will really believe antichrist is Jesus. The means as time goes that will be implemented to get you to deny Jesus if somehow you kept fast to Jesus won't be a Sunday outing either.
The ministry grew and progressed. We held fast to our calling as healers as we mined clinical and theological resources for nuggets of redemptive understanding. In light of the depth of the participants' needs, not to mention our own, we sought earnestly the Father's more powerful love. The transforming ministry of His Spirit as applied to these complexities of soul came to define our ministry.
^i^ And adopted secular behavior modification techniques, right? Well your healing is not using Spiritual gifts but secular knowledge where you try to apply the Word of God to make it godly. Redemptiveness is the saving work on the Cross of Jesus Christ. And Jesus isn't asking the gay person to change and be straight, but the homophobic Church is. There are plenty in the Church that are not homophobic. Pastors and priest everywhere marry gays in spite of their headquarters' anti-gay doctrine. If allowed I by myself can make quite a difference at your ministry. As I lay myself open to your scrutiny and bring facts not fiction to those going through your group. But this isn't what an ex-gay ministry is about "truth" is it? If it were it would include Christians gay testimonies and research of gays and straights showing gay is not condemned by the Bible. Lots of really nice laid out words to make it seem of God and I am sure you believe what you say is truth, but its full of misplaced priorities. Stephen Black only wants to have his fun little group and hates it when I write him. He told me I did not know what I was talking about concerning the founders of Exodus when I have just about as close to the horses mouth as you can get of detailed information. He never did give me my request of how Exodus looks at its founders. The current Exec. Dir. Bob Davies never even had sex as a gay person, but did have sex with women before he joined ex-gays where he got the hots right away for a woman and got married. You think he was gay? A few gay thought he says. At best a bisexual, but not gay. He head of the linking body of some 62 ex-gay ministries? Transforming ministry? Like I said, want to deal with me in person and see if your transforming really took place. Note: almost 24 years Assemblies of God man, if you are afraid of what they can do be scared, but if you think they are a Church of God then you know me pretty well as for what my background is and how I might act in faith. I am not threatening as Stephen Black accuses me I am challenging anyone to come to their church and have their pastor invite me to the alter and we all get a hold of God. You anti-gays first them me by myself alone with only God and the Lord Jesus. Lets see who is right. You love to say you disagree with me (remember I said I am taking the prerogative to assume you are just like other ex-gay ministries and so I talk to you as though I am assuming your responses) and just won't allow really acting out your faith. The walls of you protection is about to fall down, that won't be a pretty sight. It will be God doing the tearing down so all can see. You think God won't do it. The Church is like the Nation of Israel and we haven't changed much. A time has been set aside and it is almost hear. Pretty soon these voices won't be just voices anymore. The warning days will be over and the censor thrown down. The cup full and time for God to move. God doesn't want any to perish and for many of his people he must ring everything out of their brains as though your whole life is a waste so He can get all that bad out and let the good absorb back in. You will find you lost nothing, but gained understanding about love. I will sound hateful for you if that is how you call it, if just to get you thinking about the Days a head. Keep in mind the Masons. They are not the little neighborhood lodge of helpful Christians you think they represent. They have control of the world almost completely. We are now moments away from it all beginning. It isn't a matter of the cute saying anytime now. It really is anytime now. An emergency can set it off, but the plans call for a very few more years. Christians aren't going to miss it, they will miss the worst but 3 billion certainly isn't a good thing to see die. If you maintain an attitude that you are in Jesus hands with all that that implies in Church teaching today you are nearly lost already. Everyday you should have some morning for those about to die that you see all around you instead of being oblivious to what about to happen. Yes, Jesus can keep us if we keep watch like Gideon's men:
Judg 7:6 And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water. (KJV)
^i^ 10,000 sent home, but 300 watched as they drank. We must watch like his men today because the enemy is very deceptive. How many times have homophobes told me I am deceived and yet the Bible explains the coming days. We must watch or the thief will come in and steal all that we have. What do you have? What can you lose?
Especially helpful to us here was the influence of Leanne Payne. Her acuity of mind, and generosity of heart toward Desert Stream, deepened and broadened our healing ministry. God revealed through her a greater fullness of His capacity to restore persons. This has resulted in our emphasis on Himself as the basis for our unity and continued healing, rather than on overemphasizing the distinctives of personal brokenness, an imbalance that tends to divide and isolate us from one another. The sexually and relationally broken, however diverse, become whole in the same way -- confessing our sin and wounds, praying effectively for one another, and discovering our true selves in the greater truth of His glorious compassion.
^i^ Guess I will have to look into this person, can you direct me to her testimony? PLEASE! " emphasis on Himself" as you bases. Prove it. . . . I have some complete packages from other ex-gay ministries let me see yours. You rely on behavioral modification techniques and 13 anti-gay verses, then a slue of general common to all people verses to emphasis how evil gays are. Then you rely on pathetic testimonies that don't represent a day of looking for truth, but jumping directly into the hands of homophobic Christians. You are in a daze unaware of facts and real life in a dream world having no idea of the error you do. Lost to a world of games with people lives. Seeing only what you want. How can I say this. Easy I hear it from you through hundreds of thousands of phone conversation (in a 3 year period then I stopped keeping records) and now dozen sometimes everyday or at lest every other day in Christian chat rooms. Thousands of e-mails. 25% is the generally positive responses from Christians. No matter what you may tell me you reservoir come from these people's homophobia. (homophobia as my rendering so you won't be confused is to believe gay is sin and so have no choice but to say it because otherwise you'd be disobeying God and or not loving those in sin). You ignore His compassion for healthy gay Christians. Your little cute phrase are a very disgusting thing because you haven't a clue to how Jesus feels about gays. You will. He is about to sanctify Himself in gays in your sight. Let me tell you something that is not a good idea from your perspective. Let me tell you something God's ways isn't mans way so get it STRAIGHT you will know its God doing it. Don't think there is some gay war coming, most gay don't even know what they are being trained for. They are being trained by God to with open arms of love restore you back to Christ . The shaking will tear you apart so much so that all hope is lost, then you'll see those you persecuted holding out their open arms in love forgiving you so completely. This picture will be very clear. How do I know??????????????????????? Did I read it in a book, as a matter of fact yes the Bible. Who told me??? Did satan tell me???? Did some demon. I am just justifying myself? Am I making this all up? There is an answer. Am I absolutely crazy or telling you like it is?
These truths are detailed in the two books I've writtenPursuing Sexual Wholeness, and its newly revised companion guidebook, Living Waters--Pursuing Sexual and Relational Wholeness In Christ. The latter is the written component of the Living Waters: Pursuing Sexual and Relatinal Redemption in Christ program. Desert Stream's primary offering to the church at large continues to be Living Waters. We now train leaders worldwide to run these groups in their home churches.
^i^ It would be nice when you apply the word truths that you would actually apply the facts instead of non-facts. Example of fact:
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.
^i^ How anyone can turn the word "sodomite" into meaning "gay" is certainly not truths. And if your books applies truths in this way how do you call it truths? We don't even have to try hard these days to find, take the Greek:
733 arsenokoites (ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace); from 730 and 2845; a sodomite: KJV-- abuser of (that defileself) with mankind.
^i^ Would you read books that show you are wrong? I doubt it. But you would read books that discredits anything positive about gays I bet.
Beginning of AIDS Ministry
In 1985, we began to minister to persons with AIDS. Jonathan Hunter received significant healing in his own sexual identity and then became a catalyst within Desert Stream for AIDS ministry. ARM (AIDS Resource Ministry) emerged. Jonathan nurtured a multifaceted healing outreach to persons who had tested positive to the virus, those with full blown cases of the disease, and family and friends of person with AIDS. ARM is now called "Embracing Life Ministries" and continues to be a dynamic part of Desert Stream Ministries. I believe "Embracing Life" leads the way in Christian AIDS ministry. Its Christ-centered approach to the restoration of the whole person (body, soul and spirit) is truly cutting-edge.
^i^ I would certainly hope that ministry would not take advantage of persons with AIDS for an opportunity to show gay is sin. It is really alarming that such ministries as described above would not check out its counterpart in the gay community. You would really find ministries that has always led the way to help persons with AIDS. The general Church or ex-gays never can dare say they lead the way. They have led the way down hill for so long at a time when they could have made a difference.
A New Home
Desert Stream Ministries grew up and out of its original church home. Our staff moved to the Vineyard Christian Fellowship of Anaheim, California. With the blessings of John Wimber, Carl Tuttle and his church, the Vineyard Anaheim (which serves as the hub of the Vineyard movement) has allowed our staff and offices to move there. We look forward to working with John and joining our stream with the powerful current of God's Spirit that goes forth from his ministry.
^i^ Sounds like growth doesn't it? Well your message has too much hopelessness and an answer is on the way. I hope your faith is strong enough to listen when it reaches your ears.
Church Education
Our efforts extend beyond the Vineyard as well. We avail ourselves to all expressions of Christ's church that seek to minister more effectively to the sexually-broken and to persons with AIDS. Desert Stream wants the church to provide a unified, clear witness of Jesus' faithfulness to them. Sexual/ relational brokenness and AIDS are no match for His transforming love; these problems cannot deflect Him. In fact, they compel Him to raise up an army of healers who can equip His bride to extend His hand to those affected by AIDS and sexual and relational brokenness.
^i^ Ahhh, I see you will go where they believe gay is sin, but you will not go to find out if it is sin or not by talking with gay Christians and dealing in faith calling on God face to face with Gay Christians. I bet you haven't a clue what God is about to do concerning ex-gays. But then you would have to take time to check out what God is doing in the gay community wouldn't you.
Desert Stream Ministries is part of that army. We look forward to serving you. As you seek to be healed, or to extend that healing to someone you love, or to establish a ministry in your own church, we'd like to help. We need one another as we seek to receive and extend Jesus' hand to the sexually-and realtionally broken.
^i^ Being gay isn't a brokened condition, but thinking it is sin is a brokened condition. The terrible thing is you take broken gays who needs help and turn what and who they are into sin. You do not give these people opportunity to see all the facts. You tell them lies about the gay community rendering about what the Bibles says. Your willingness is only as far as where ever you go to help the helpees must accept you doctrine against gays.
Our Purpose
Desert Stream raises up the age-old foundation of holiness and wholeness for those affected by AIDS and by various kinds of sexual brokenness.
Sexual brokenness applies to those beset by sexual appetites and/or activities conceived outside of the heterosexual covenant. This includes persons with homosexual tendencies(1), sexual addicts(2), and victims of childhood sexual abuse(3). The restoration of sexual brokenness involves both healing the wounds of one's past as well as becoming empowered to walk uprightly in His holy love in the present. Over time, we learn to accept and steward the real and legitimate needs we have to love and be loved.
Desert Stream/"Embracing Life" upholds Christ and His church as the source of such restoration. Whereas the evil one seeks to use sexual brokenness and AIDS to destroy lives, Jesus moves with powerful compassion to reclaim these lives. In Him, the sexually-broken discover God's order and are enabled to walk in it through repentance unto Jesus' wholeness; the person with AIDS discovers Jesus' life and is secured in Him unto eternity.
Jesus extends His hand to the sexually-broken and to persons with AIDS through the ministry of Desert Stream/"Embracing Life". Practically, we seek to extend the hand of Jesus by:
^i^ Isn't your purpose to also teach what the Word says? Does it say gay is sin and how did you arrive at this? You whole here seems to assume gay is sin and has nothing to do with what is the truth. Why can't you walk through the Bible on these matters step by step. Bringing in experts on both sides of the question. If your clients becomes confused as who is right and who is wrong then that is plenty enough to tell you something is dreadfully wrong with just saying gay is sin. You must have strong proof or convincing information to allow those in your care to have see the truth that set people free. If the opposing side has far superior convincing information then where is the leg you stand on? This goes beyond faith. Faith is believing in something not seen. The gay issue are so full of information and history with 600 million gay alive today. A hand full of sick gays needing counseling is not a good control study of Bible truths.
Providing Local Support and Healing Opportunities
For the sexually-broken and for persons with AIDS. We also provide literature and inter-national referrals for people affected by these problems who need the hope and hand of Jesus in their particular part of the world.
^i^ I bet included in your packet of info is no resource that is from organizations that think gay is not sin. The biggest resources you ignore and in fact no doubt discourage.
Equipping the Church
To minister effectively to the sexually-broken and to persons with AIDS. We do so by providing healing and educational conferences for individual churches, for churches gathered together in any given area, and for leaders desiring to be specifically equipped to lead ministries to the sexually-broken and for people affected by AIDS in their own churches. We provide counsel for pastors and counselors who seek our input as they minister in these areas. We also encourage and advise those we have trained as they seek our opinion on how to best implement the goal at hand.
^i^ Since I am highly critical of your outreaches why don't you show me you wealth of great wisdom concerning gays is sin and your program is good and working. Send me such a packet for my personal review. POB 46971 Seattle, Wa 98146 This way I can see if I am sticking my foot in my mouth or if I am right. I personally think you are spreading lies about what the Bible says. You may believe these lies, but the facts still are gay is not sin. Show your ready made material that you sent to clients and churches. Thank-you
Enlarging the Church
God is breaking our hearts for the unsaved. Men and women today face life and death choices concerning their sexuality. The majority of them either do not know Jesus or, if they do, have no idea as to how He enables them to walk free of immorality and often binding patterns of relational brokenness. We seek to avail ourselves to all the opportunities Jesus gives us to share with unbelievers how He is the answer to the AIDS crisis and the source of sexual purity and wholeness. We believe that the topical relevance of AIDS and sexuality will open many doors for Desert Stream Ministries to proclaim Jesus as Lord and healer of all. In this way, seeds will be planted, some harvested, and the church will be enlarged.
^i^ Such a taking advantage of the week. I do in fact know what I am talking about. I have read now a large number of ex-gay leaders testimonies and founders of these ex-gay ministries. I have studied material about had had personal interviews with some founders or ex-gays for going on 24 years. It is so typical of a unsaved gays getting saved after a guilt ridden life being directed to a church who directs to a ex-gay ministry then they become leaders of that ministry or found their own having not spent one day making a independent study of what both sides of the issue say. None spending time in gay Christian ministries. Most were druggies and so forth. It just so happen most gays don't go through this and most gays are healthy not needing counseling. Most also play with opposite gender toys and most experience sex with the opposite sex. These are the leaders of the ex-gay ministries. People to flock their way because there are enough to damaged by the Church's 700 year old anti-gay doctrine they just can't cope. But God is so good. Most gays do cope with the Church's mistreatment and still against all odds remain healthy and many Christian.
Preparing and Purifying the Church
For Christ's return. Desert Stream/"Embracing Life" is at core a prophetic ministry. God has granted us a unique anointing to help the church realize her call as torchbearer of Jesus' radiant compassion, ablaze with purity and awaiting His return. How the church receives those affected by AIDS and sexual brokenness functions as an important gauge of her readiness to receive Him. What kind of compassion does she extend to the least lovely? Is it the false compassion which accepts the individual without compelling him or her to repent unto Jesus' life? Or is it a cruel and thin moralizing that calls sinners to repent without loving them unto wholeness? Here the church often places a harsh, unrealistic yoke upon those desperately in need of healing. Sadder still, the majority of churches deny that persons affected by AIDS and sexual brokenness even warrant a response at all.
^i^ "prophetic"????? You mean you teach them that they will see 3 billion die before the Rapture? That there is a TimE plan of 1260 days to break the power of the Church led by the two witnesses? That Christians have 1335 days with the last 75 day of that having the possibility of being cut short.? Than antichrist has 1290 days from the end of the TRIB overlapping the 2 witnesses by 30 days so he can have time to kill them while Christian watch. If you have no idea what I just rambled out to you then what game are you telling those in your hands?
Desert Stream/"Embracing Life" awakens the church to her responsibility to raise high the transforming love of Jesus. He desires that all men and women forsake their rags of sin and hopelessness and become cloaked in His righteousness. We all need to be washed by Jesus. Within each of us lives the "Peter" that refuses the invitation of the Holy One to know us at our point of greatest shame and need, and to cleanse us there (John 13: 6-8). We also need to feed on Christ as our primary sustenance Ð our bread of life. To some degree or another, we all wrestle with appetites that compel us to pass over His substantial love in order to partake of lesser goals and gods that captivate our lives (John 6: 53-58). He desires that this occur through His bride, not in spite of her or even alongside of her.
^i^ I couldn't agree more, however your meaning centers around gay is sin and with no hope of seeing information that says any different than that message. As for the bride issue. You haven't a clue at least in this document about the Bride's preparation coming up. Jesus himself is about to begin fitting the wedding gowns, because just about no one has gotten ready, they have all played church for so long they forgot that the Last Days Church isn't like the past Church. It just isn't going to be church as usual.
Desert Stream encourages the church to see in the restoration of persons with AIDS and the sexually-broken a window to the reclamation of life and purity that Jesus desires for all people. He commands everyone to establish their lives in Him; therein lies the basis for our transformation. That applies to all, not only those with the most obvious identified problems.
^i^ It is so pitiful to associate restoration of AIDS victims with changing to straight. One of these days I hope to go to one of these places to see how desert stream loves them whole.
Persons with AIDS and those broken by sexual immorality of any kind stop us in our tracks and demand by their very presence, "How deep and embracing is the love of Jesus?" How the church of Jesus Christ responds to them is a window to the truth and purity of her witness of Jesus. We delight in helping her to shine brightly with radiant compassion. We help purify and prepare her for the coming of Jesus.
^i^ If this was so true then why is it seen as such hypocritical and full of lies by so many gays? I remember Jan Crouch saying at a wedding reception that if only gays could see all the Christian love there they'd turn straight right away. Well, of course she is a bit naïve, but the point is you are saying you have this wonderful love, yet your love is seen as forked. You forget that gays are Christian too and they see the love of Jesus in their places of worship and even in straight churches gays are ministered to by the Holy Spirit in spite of the condemnation that church would have towards them. 15 years almost never missed a service or any other meeting in the Assemblies of God churches I have worshipped in and God was personally there for me and not just me myself, but publicly through operation of spirituals by others to me specifically with wonderful confirmation that I was in the will of God and called and much more. Were they all wrong? I am not trying to brag, but just how many men and women of God are needed to authenticate publicly someone is of God or not? Earlier you talked about the prophetic, then do you accept the gifts of the Holy Spirit? You know, speaking in tongues? Physical healings? So far you indicate mental healings. Well in the Pentecostal arena people lay hands on and prophesy and so forth. Is this wrong? Is it right? Is it wrong if done to a gay person? Do they need to know they are gay or just obey God when He tells them to prophesy over such and such person? Are you willing to say that because I am gay every person that ever prophesied over me some how got a demon for the moment? Or were they just wrong? How do you explain it? What kind of prophets prophesied over me? There were Assemblies of God pastors (many), there were TBN related prophets, there were old time camp meetings, tent and all. There were Four Square. Indian reservation preachers. Straight Pentecostal Pastors home Bible studies (these all knew I was gay though). Neat little churches that just loved the Lord and so forth. Hundreds. I did not ask them to, I was called out and not many others were. My lover was with me sitting next to me when I was called out. What number do you come up with that would be safe to say were these prophets were wrong? Can you undo the prophesying? I may seem like a nut case here, but you don't give me much to work with, but you are so wrong concerning gays. What about what God tells me? Your problem is you will flat out reject what I have just told you. If God has sent me to you and you reject what I say, what then? I know you without knowing you and that is you just plain can not accept a gay persons testimony. For you it would equal denying Jesus before God and then God would have to deny you. With this high standard you placed on yourself you'd rather chance you are right and reject what I tell you.
- 1) Definition of Homosexuality - the adult condition of having an emotional and erotic attraction for members of the same-sex. Homosexual ex-pression is sinful in its denial of the complementarity of male and female. (Gen. 1:26, 27; Lev. 18:22; Romans 1:16-32)
- ^i^ When does one become adult? Did you emphasis adult because you know a little truth about Romans? You see the context is 18-32. It describes adults that turned from God and made gods to worship. Because of this God cause a change to occur resulting in them turning, as you would, gay. Now as a result of this new sexual behavior there is a visible result which is described in 28-32. FACT gays did not turn from God and make gods. FACT gays were gay long before adulthood so they could not just recently be made gay. Testimony after testimony ex-gay founders and leaders attest to they found they were gay long before adulthood. Gays do not behave as 28-32 describes. The Greek word for natural and nature means that for this to be as you wish it explains that first of all these people absolutely enjoyed straight sex completely before this time, they performed the straight sex acts and liked it as a thorough straight person. Then suddenly they started having gay sex as it were. Sorry with 600 million chances today to interview gays you will find this is not happening. Rom. 1:26-27 does not condemn gays. See http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/9647/romans.html for more details on this verse. See http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/9647/leviticus.html for more details on Lev. 18:22. Quickly Lev. deals with Molech and the things Egypt and Canaan were doing worshipping other gods. Woman's first meaning is adulteress and the meaning of the kind of woman is not expressed in translations:
- 802 'ishshah (ish-shaw'); feminine of 376 or 582; irregular plural, nashiym (naw-sheem'); a woman (used in the same wide sense as 582): KJV-- [adulter] ess, each, every, female, X many, + none, one, + together, wife, woman. Often unexpressed in English.
- ^i^ Is this an already sexually evil woman? It is a relationship of a married husband and wife. Studies continue to show this particular woman was not with her husband in this setting. Abomination is especial emphasized to be act done worshipping other gods. Hence, don't go to the "sodomites". Sodomites are temple prostitutes not gays. There are extensive studies on these temple prostitutes make no mistake about it. If you feel need of more about the Garden we have the soon to be Apostles saying this to Jesus:
- Matt 19:10 The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry." (NIV)
- ^i^ The Garden has a lot to say and unless you have gone on to study material during and after the Garden then be careful who you condemn.
- Using the Garden as a proof that gay is sin is actually very dumb. First, gay is inherited (I understand you flatly reject this, so what you are wrong) the Hebrew word for RIB some scholars (straight and ungay related) have found that the most accurate definition of the word is CELL from that rib. Now if this were true, you have to argue it out as to what scholars are right, you certainly can't have such personal knowledge, then it not only show how great and wonderful God is, in that He set to work all things cells means in Adam body (not intended as a pun to support gays) and therefore all offspring would be subject to inheritance which of course is what the Bible is about too, inheriting the kingdom.
- 2) Definition of Sexual Addiction - a habitual pre-occupation with a sexual fantasy, image, or behavior which results in orgasm. Sexual addiction is sinful in its denial of the committed context for genital sexual expression. (Gen. 2:18-25; I Cor. 6:12-20)
- ^i^ Hmmm. . . I am 51 years old been in church 24 years plus several more not of my choice and I find that nearly every human being likes there sex and keeps doing it. Married folk has sex all the time. ( oops many fall out of love and stop sex. ) Single people may fantasize because they haven't found the right person. You would be a liar if you say you don't do this at times. Pre-occupation????? Then everyone is up to their neck in sin. Every where you turn around with straights is sex sex sex and more sex. . . . In 1850 at a USA clergy convention during a session they discussed masturbation. They have been teaching 1Cor 6:9 meant masturbates won't inherit the Kingdom. This convention as they discussed this issue they all agreed that if they continue to preach this Heaven would be empty. They in their ministry seen enough to figure out everyone does it. So they at that time said we must find some other group to fill this sin spot. They all decided since gays were already condemned ( 550 years of anti-gay Church doctrine today it is 700 years worth of teaching that) they would just use gays as an example, finally in 1950 they finished the work and removed the 2 Greek word and just plain put homosexual there instead. If sexual addition is sinful then no human will get to Heaven. Funny you seem to ignore marriage sex as addiction. It is the same animal, but in a committed monogamous, loving, caring, relationship. The Bible say your body is not yours but your wife's and vice versa. So if one or the other isn't quite in to mood consideration of the others needs is important. ( this doesn't mean free raping of a spouse). Seems like you know very little about sex and humans and you try to use the Bible to support you. Try reading what is allowed with Levite priests in the oral books of the LAW. If you want to condemn sex in ways or call sex an addiction you need to really get to know your subject or you will do what you in fact are doing adding to the heavy weights thrown on the shoulders of the innocent.
- 3) Definition of Sexual Abuse - when a person under the age of 18 is pursued by an adult as an object of sexual gratification. Sexual abuse is sinful in its violation of consent, and a mutual adult context for genital sexual expression.
^i^ Sexual abuse is far greater than this simple rendering. The above is one type of abuse relating to sex with a minor. How is this applicable in a ministry devoted to changing gays to straight and people with AIDS. Suddenly you are throwing in pedophiles and child abusers in as another name for gays. Just like a few years ago in Washington a group of Christian were getting a petition signed with enough signatures to get a the ballot which would ban gay from working and anyone knowing it would also be banned, it also included other minorities races and it categorized gays with those that had sex with animals. This group hid a flap that explained the rest and what you saw was what appeared to be stopping gays from more rights. This was learned and thrown out and got much press and here you are adding in as your last comment that gay are associated with sex with children when the FACTS say 97% of sexual child abusers are straight. The Promise Keepers are promoting sexual abuse by turning husbands into rulers of their wives. Yes it sometimes sounds good what they say, but behind the scenes its already happening.
^i^ Though I sound very much against every aspect of your ministry, that is not my reasoning behind writing to you. My writing often makes people say I am angry. If this is your response, you should consider why you think this way. Just because someone is standing up to you and other ex-gays in this case ( most of my ministry is to the straight Church and little to do with ex-gays) doesn't mean they are the kind of angry you intend to impute. Being angry is not sin when directed correctly. It can sound like I am lashing out at you. I guarantee you I am not in the way again you would impute. I would that you have the chance to see with your eyes and hear with your ears, but I know that like the Nation of Israel who will see in a moment whom they pierced, so in a very little space of time the Church will see the innocent they have persecuted. I can't show you that sight, you may have seen glimpses, but nearly all Christians at least to the tune of 2/3 will not see until the time of the breaking of the power of the Church, a 1260 day period of time. At that time you will see and know what I am talking about, but that will be extremely painful something Jesus would not want you to experience. You and me and everyone Christian or not will experience this time and a large number will die, but how we experience it makes a difference of how we entered this time period. If we have failed to watch the thief will come in a steel all that we have and oh how painful that will be. If we have has some glimpse into these things then when we see them we will understand this must be so and a great deal of peace will be with you. If you flat out reject these things that many today are explaining about the coming shaking of the Church then the deception to follow antichrist will be strongest to the point that it will seem he is Jesus and the Jesus of the Bible lied or the way it will be explained will make more since that what you have been taught till now. Its done, its ready, the Church has already been infiltrated long enough to make the deception work. You haven't a clue. You are in your world, in your game, thinking you are ready, looking for his return. God said this in his word. Then suddenly disasters strike and you will ask God why, He will say to you (all the alive today Church) are being punished for your ancestors sins (the Church since Jesus who are dead now) and what do you care that I say that, your sins are worse than theirs. Soooo, Tell me you understand what I am saying. . . . I doubt it at all. . I am just a nut case, but for you I will be a fool that you can remember and watch.
Voice: 206-338-4297(gays) text: 425-321-5987 correspondence: gays4jesus@gays4jesus.com